Discussion:
NJ Transit Photography Policy
(too old to reply)
Michael Finfer
2005-12-31 20:23:34 UTC
Permalink
I received the following letter from George Warrington, executive
director of NJ Transit today:

Thank you for your letter regarding NJ Transit's proposed amendments to
NJAC 16:83, Conduct and Safety of the Public in the Use of NJ Transit
Equipment and Facilities, published in the New Jersey Register as PRN
2005-156.

We received an unusual number of public comments, almost all of them
regarding the proposed changes to the non-commercial photography policy.
Your input was taken into careful consideration by senior management.

In fact, I personally reviewed the public comments and concluded that
the proposed rule changes are impractical. I have, therefore, directed
that the proposed rule amendments be withdrawn. Like the majority of
Transit Systems around the country, we will not require permits for
non-commercial photography at this time.

Effective immediately, we will return to our historic practice, which
enables hobbyists and other non-commercial photographers to take
pictures in public areas throughout the NJ Transit system without
obtaining permission or providing prior notice. There will also
continue to be no restrictions on journalists in public areas of the system.

While you are on our system, I encourage you to support our police
department by calling the hotline-1-888-TIPS-NJT if you see any
suspicious behavior. Also, be advised that our police, as well as local
law enforcement, have a responsibility to provide for the safety and
security of our customers, employees, and assets. If an officer
receives a complaint or observes circumstances that warrant further
investigation, he or she may approach you. I ask that you cooperate
fully with the officer, understanding that he or she is concerned both
for your safety and the security of 800,000 commuters who ride the
system every day.

Thank you again for taking the time to submit your comments.

Sincerely,
George D. Warrington
Executive Director

--------

Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2006-01-02 00:32:19 UTC
Permalink
I received the following letter from George Warrington...
Like the majority of
Transit Systems around the country, we will not require permits for
non-commercial photography at this time.
This is very good news. I submitted comments too but didn't get any
response yet. I didn't see anything on the NJT web site. As it
published anywhere else?
If an officer
receives a complaint or observes circumstances that warrant further
investigation, he or she may approach you.
This could be onerous. "Cooperate" is a very loaded word in criminal
justice world. People can "cooperate" themselves right out of their
employment or having a clear name.


Anyway, there was a discussion of infrastructure photography on the
roads newsgroup and every poster except one objected to permits and
restrictions of public photography.


[public replies please]

2]
Michael Finfer
2006-01-02 02:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I received the following letter from George Warrington...
Like the majority of
Transit Systems around the country, we will not require permits for
non-commercial photography at this time.
This is very good news. I submitted comments too but didn't get any
response yet. I didn't see anything on the NJT web site. As it
published anywhere else?
You live in South Jersey, don't you? It might take the mail an extra
day to get there from Newark, which means you'd probably get it on Tuesday.

I do not expect NJT to publish this, it's not in their interest to do
so, but I sent a scan of that letter to the Star-Ledger in the hope that
someone there would be interested in a follow-up story on the subject.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
If an officer
receives a complaint or observes circumstances that warrant further
investigation, he or she may approach you.
This could be onerous. "Cooperate" is a very loaded word in criminal
justice world. People can "cooperate" themselves right out of their
employment or having a clear name.
Anyway, there was a discussion of infrastructure photography on the
roads newsgroup and every poster except one objected to permits and
restrictions of public photography.
Photography of trains, bridges, and buildings are well established
hobbies that must be protected if we are to maintain the principles set
forward by our founding fathers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ
Phil Kane
2006-01-03 01:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Finfer
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Anyway, there was a discussion of infrastructure photography on the
roads newsgroup and every poster except one objected to permits and
restrictions of public photography.
Photography of trains, bridges, and buildings are well established
hobbies that must be protected if we are to maintain the principles set
forward by our founding fathers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The BNSF Railway (Burlington Northern Santa Fe), one of the three
"big guns" in the US, has finally recognized that railfans
(including rail photogs) are the backup eyes-and-ears of their
security efforts, and has publicly announced that in 2006 they are
instituting a "railfan ID" system whereby as long as the holder is
off the railroad's non-public property and is not interfering with
railroad operations, photography and just plain "train-watching"
will be allowed without interference, i.e. it's a "get out of jail
free" card if approached by local law or railroad special agents. In
return, the holders will be asked to report genuine suspicious
activity to the railroad's 800-number if it is observed.

This is big news in the midwest and west coast where the BNSF runs,
and we can only hope that railfans don't screw up the opportunity
by doing stupid things and that other railroads and transit systems
will opt into that system.

--
===> Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please <===

Phil Kane -- Beaverton, Oregon
PNW Milepost 754 -- Tillamook District
Joseph D. Korman
2006-01-03 15:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Kane
Post by Michael Finfer
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Anyway, there was a discussion of infrastructure photography on the
roads newsgroup and every poster except one objected to permits and
restrictions of public photography.
Photography of trains, bridges, and buildings are well established
hobbies that must be protected if we are to maintain the principles set
forward by our founding fathers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The BNSF Railway (Burlington Northern Santa Fe), one of the three
"big guns" in the US, has finally recognized that railfans
(including rail photogs) are the backup eyes-and-ears of their
security efforts, and has publicly announced that in 2006 they are
instituting a "railfan ID" system whereby as long as the holder is
off the railroad's non-public property and is not interfering with
railroad operations, photography and just plain "train-watching"
will be allowed without interference, i.e. it's a "get out of jail
free" card if approached by local law or railroad special agents. In
return, the holders will be asked to report genuine suspicious
activity to the railroad's 800-number if it is observed.
This is big news in the midwest and west coast where the BNSF runs,
and we can only hope that railfans don't screw up the opportunity
by doing stupid things and that other railroads and transit systems
will opt into that system.
--
===> Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please <===
Phil Kane -- Beaverton, Oregon
PNW Milepost 754 -- Tillamook District
Around and around and around and around we go!

One system drops photo ID's and another picks it up! Where does one
have to go to get the ID?
--
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| Joseph D. Korman |
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Phil Kane
2006-01-04 05:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph D. Korman
One system drops photo ID's and another picks it up! Where does one
have to go to get the ID?
I don't know if it's a photo ID or it's tied to one's driver license
or ID card.

We'll find out where they are to be issued (if and) when the program
is put into effect. If it's to be done locally in the BNSF
Vancouver (WA) Yard facility, that's really good, because that's
co-located with an AMTRAK station where they let you park-and-shoot
with no problem.

--
===> Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please <===

Phil Kane -- Beaverton, Oregon
PNW Milepost 754 -- Tillamook District
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2006-01-03 16:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Finfer
I do not expect NJT to publish this, it's not in their interest to do
so, but I sent a scan of that letter to the Star-Ledger in the hope that
someone there would be interested in a follow-up story on the subject.
Good idea to send it to the Star Ledger. I don't read that every day,
but if they use it, could you share it here?

It probably would be helpful if you made a photocopy of the letter,
laminated it, and carried it with you any time you're out taking
pictures.

Thanks again for sharing the letter.
Post by Michael Finfer
Photography of trains, bridges, and buildings are well established
hobbies that must be protected if we are to maintain the principles set
forward by our founding fathers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I am troubled by the turn of events done in name of "protecting us".
Extensive information collection is done by both the government AND
private sector. We don't like terrorists so we let the anti-terror
agencies look at personal information normally strictly private (like
phone calls). We really don't like perverts so we do likewise; that's
ok to track them. Then it's drug dealers because we don't like them
either.

That guy who lost his temper at the town meeting and was asked to
leave, well is he just a loudmouth, or is he a safety risk? Better
check him out. Oh, we can look up his credit cards, EZ Pass, ATM
usage, transit Metro Card or commuter ticket (NJT has new machines that
"knows" your ticket usage), to see where's her's going, what he's
buying, etc. You know what? We really don't want that guy living in
our town, let's find a way to get rid of him. Does his
employer/mortgage company/insurance company know he's trouble? Let's
make sure they know. So he loses his job or house, that's not our
problem, we have to protect our homes and children, you know. He's a
troublemaker and we don't want him around.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2006-01-05 19:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Finfer
You live in South Jersey, don't you? It might take the mail an extra
day to get there from Newark, which means you'd probably get it on Tuesday.
I got the letter. Thanks again for copying it and sharing it here.


I am please, but I must admit I'm surprised. The trend has been for
authorities to go into the opposite direction and add restrictions and
security. (Yes, NYC won't have a photo ban). But on the roads
newsgroup there was talk of various toll authorities banning
photographs even when taken from safe and otherwise public places.
Some toll bridges, like the Cheasepeake Bridge/Tunnel, are tourist
attractions and photo objects in their own right.

In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 such bans had a bit more
justification. But in the time that has passed and what the public has
learned about govt activities, the issue has changed dramatically.
Post by Michael Finfer
Photography of trains, bridges, and buildings are well established
hobbies that must be protected if we are to maintain the principles set
forward by our founding fathers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Very true.
danny burstein
2006-01-15 09:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Finfer
I received the following letter from George Warrington, executive
( snip of a very courteous and intelligent lette from
Mr. Warrington .. [just for space ] )

And... this was covered in today's (Sun 15-Jan-2006)
NY Post as follows:

" NJ TRANSIT 'SNAPS' TO IT

" Jan 15, 2006 - New Jersey Transit has given up on a proposal to
restrict amateur photographers from taking snapshots of trains.

" Transit officials said the decision to toss out the proposed
anti-terroris measure, which would have required photographers
to get an identification card and call railroad police 24 hours
before taking photos, was not well-received by the public....

rest at: http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/60467.htm
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
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[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2006-01-16 01:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Amusing. In the 1990s governor's campaign, attorneys warned us
taking pictures inside subways was illegal. Wonder why? Hoping folks
can't prove the obvious? Anyways, as far as terrorism, what about
Google/Yahoo Earth/Maps satellite photos? I tried to get our family
home in Athens and noticed the photos are like five years BEFORE the
Olympics. So SOMEONE had a brain SOMEWHERE. The cockpits that hit
Pearl Harbor all had a tourist post card bought in Hawaii by spies.


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Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Zealots conceal own mixed past] [Cigar smoke belongs in veg food group]
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2006-01-17 17:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Amusing. In the 1990s governor's campaign, attorneys warned us
taking pictures inside subways was illegal.
For many years taking pictures within the NYC subways was illegal. The
primary concern at that time, which was realistic, was fear of a
liability lawsuit in case the photographer injured himself or others.
The permit application was a liabiltiy release document.

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